Webinars

ROSIE LANE: Hello everybody.  Welcome, happy Wednesday to you all.  It is wonderful to see so many people online.  It has just hit 12.30 at my end, so I am going to make a start.  My name is Rosie Lane, and I’m the head of training and advisory here at Australian Disability Network.  I’m thrilled to be your host for today’s session, and joined by Sarah Pulis, Director at Intopia.  Welcome Sarah, and welcome everybody.

For those who might not be familiar with Australian Disability Network, we work with organisations across Australia to make workplaces more inclusive for people with disability.  We know that many of you are at different stages of this journey – some are just getting started, others have been working on inclusion for years, but still want to do more.  Whatever you are at and wherever your organisations are at, you are in the right place.  I’d like to acknowledge country to begin and acknowledge indigenous Australians as the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet and acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community.  We pay our respect to people, cultures and Elders of indigenous communities past and present.  I am coming to you from Wurundjeri country here in the Kulin Nation in Naarm, Melbourne.  Today’s agenda, of course to start off with some housekeeping notes from me, but I will keep those short.  I will then introduce our guest speaker and hand over to Sarah who will take you through all the fabulous information that she has for you all.  We’ll then have a Q&A at the end which I will facilitate.  So please do use the Q&A function to pop your questions in as we move through, and I will feed those through and ask those when we get to the Q&A session, then I’ll wrap-up at the end and close.

Some accessibility features for this session as well.  So we have live captions available provided by Deaf Connect.  We have popped the link for those captions as a pinned message in the chat, so feel free to grab that if that would be useful for you.  We also have Auslan Interpreters provided by Deaf Connect and we have those interprets spotlighted on the screen as well.  You should also be able to pin those to the screen if that is useful for you.

This Webinar will be recorded.  We will share this with the transcript afterwards to all registered attendees.  So if you are here today, you will get that recording, but also for listening afterwards.  Hello.

We will be monitoring the chat and the Q&A as well.  As I have said add questions in as we go.  Upvote the questions that you’d really like answered.  If we are not able to get to your question and we do have a lot of people online today, we will share an FAQ after the event.  Do pop them in and we’ll get to them today or afterwards.  If you encounter any technical issues during the Webinar, we will be sending out the recording and transcript afterwards so you’ll have that to refer to and there are people on the chat who are supporting as well.  Without further ado I’d like to introduce our speaker today.  We are very, very lucky to have Sarah Pulis here.  Sarah is a digital accessibility and inclusion expert and cofounder of Intopia, a digital inclusion consultancy.  Sarah has over 10 years’ experience working with non-profits, corporates and individuals to create a more inclusive digital world.  Her experience ranges from strategy and culture to technical accessibility and usability.  Sarah is also founder of Ally Bytes and Ally Camp, if anyone is reading on screen, Australia’s largest events on digital accessibility and inclusion.  I am going to hand over to Sarah to share your slides and take it away.

SARAH PULIS: Thank you so much, Rosie.  Bear with me, I am just going to bring my slides up and then we’ll get started.  Someone needs to prey to the technical fairies now to make sure it is all working.  Confirming, Rosie, slides are up?  Yep.  Fantastic.  Okay.  Technical fairies are good today, that’s always a nice start.

Thank you so much to the Australian Disability Network for inviting me to today’s Webinar.  I would also like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we are at least – I am meeting today.  I pay my respects to their Elders past and present and the Aboriginal Elders of other communities who also may be here today.

So what I’d love to talk about today is the guidelines on equal access to digital goods and services.  So Intopia actually partnered with the Australian Humans Rights Commission in writing these Guidelines.  I will go through a little bit about the process and how we got to those Guidelines as part of today’s presentation.

So what we will be covering, first of all we will be covering off about the Guidelines, what they are and also why they are important.  What they might mean for your organisation or perhaps the team that you are working within, and then some practical steps that you can take to align with the Guidelines.

So technology is central to how we work, we shop, we learn and also we connect.  I’d love you to just take a moment to think through everything you’ve done over the last 24 hours.  How many things have involved technology in some way?  Did you use maybe a mobile phone, a computer, or perhaps a Smart TV?  What about a Smart appliance or a credit card or some kind of transport.  What we know is technology is everywhere, we do rely on it everyday and we know that when digital products are not available people are excluded.  Of course the Disability Inclusion Act reinforces that equal access and also to digital goods and services is so important for people with disabilities in all forms of their life.

So today we are going to be talking about these Guidelines, Guidelines on equal access to digital goods and services.  This is a practical resource that was published by the Australian Human Rights Commission.  The Guidelines clarify how the legislation, the Disability Discrimination Act published in 1992 applies to the digital world.  The core message out of these Guidelines is simple, but powerful.  That is that equal access to all forms of digital technology, websites, Apps and any other digital services isn’t a nice to have, it is a fundamental human right.  This aligns with the UN Convention of the rights of persons with disability’s view on technology as well as for people with disabilities.  What these Guidelines do is they are trying to provide clear and actionable advice to help organisations understand their legal obligations that move beyond compliance and go to general inclusion.  So for years we know organisations have asked us, what do we actually need to do to make things accessible?  The previous document that was published by the Australian Human Rights Commission, which was called the Worldwide Web Advisory Notes was last updated 10 years ago.  So obviously a lot has changed in technology in 10 years.  So we know that this document was due for an update and we are so happy to partner with the Commission on the update of that document, which is now called the Guidelines.  So this document really empowers everyone.  It empowers organisations that are building or buying digital goods and services, but also those that want to understand and exercise their right to non-discrimination in a digital world.  That of course includes people with disabilities and also the community groups and disability organisations that represent them.

So I wanted to explore a little bit about the relationship between the Disability Discrimination Act and the new Guidelines.  So if we look at the Disability Discrimination Act, the Act itself makes it unlawful to discriminate against people with disabilities in all areas of public life.  It is the law.  It is legally binding.  That has not changed.  However being a legal document and being legislation it is difficult to update, although some of you may have seen that there is a process that has just kicked off in the last few weeks to review the Disability Discrimination Act, but that’s the first time that’s happened since 1992.  Now, the Guidelines on equal access to digital goods and services are authoritative guidance published by the Australian Human Rights Commission.  They are specific to digital goods and services – probably worked that out already by how many times I have said those words – but obviously you know the access to technology does touch on, as we sort of thought and talked about in that first part of the presentation, it does touch a lot of those areas of public life.

What we are hoping is that the Guidelines can respond rapidly to the changing technologies.  But one of the key things is to look at both of these documents together, so the Guidelines should be read in conjunction with the Disability Discrimination Act.  One of the very common questions that we had when the Guidelines were released is, “Well, when do we need to implement them by?”  I will answer that one now, which is there are no timelines specified within the Guidelines on when you need to implement them.  The simple matter is that the Disability Discrimination Act is still the Disability Discrimination Act.  It was before the Guidelines were published and it still is after the Guidelines were published.  So there is no timeframe, I guess, we always would hope and love that organisations have been working on their digital accessibility and inclusion and we also hope that these Guidelines refocus on that and also give more practical guidance for organisations, but it is not something that’s like a timeframe-related document.

So a little bit about how these Guidelines were created.  It was in November 2023 that the Commission engaged Intopia to provide expert advice and essentially to draft these particular Guidelines.  That was an open process, so there was a request for tender for an accessibility partner, and Intopia having worked with many organisations in the past, so Intopia is 9 years old now and are experienced both on the technical side of producing accessible products and services, but also in the legislative side, not just in Australia, but also through our work internationally meant that the Commission felt that we would be a good partner for this project.  It was then soon after in December that we started on this process and that included a review of the existing advisory notes.  Also reviewing the recommendations that had come out in the Human Rights and Technology Paper, which was published by the Australian Human Rights Commission in 2021.  Then lastly, an acknowledgment that there was some work done to update the advisory notes prior to Intopia being engaged, and this work was led by Greg Alchin and others in the community, which did include myself.  So that’s our starting point.  We reviewed the existing note, in all honesty we kind of knew that note back-to-front so it hasn’t been a hard job for us, but part of that process was clearly documents what was still valid within that existing advisory note and where things needed to be updated.  And that included any of those recommendations from the Human Rights and Technology Paper as well.

So by March 2024 we convened our first advisory group meeting.  So we actually invited a number of different people to be part of the advisory group.  It consisted of 19 invited members, and they represented accessibility experts within the industry, disability organisations, and also people who would be using what is now called the Guidelines.  So these groups were regularly consulted and provided feedback throughout the entire process.

By May 2024 we had actually created the first draft of the Guidelines.  So it was then that the Australian Human Rights Commission had a public call for feedback on those draft Guidelines.  So once the public called for feedback was concluded then we went into that final stretch of getting the Guidelines ready for publishing.  In all honesty that took probably about 9 months to get there.  So between June 2024 and March 2025 we went through about 6 or 7 drafts, going back and forth with the Commission, obviously taking into consideration both the feedback that had come from the public call for feedback, but also the feedback from our advisory group members, and just iterating on that draft.  Of course one of the key things that happened during this period is working with the Disability Discrimination Commissioner Rosemary Kayess and her team on that draft.  It wasn’t just what was included in the draft, we needed to make sure that the Guidelines reflected the language of the Commission and also passed the legal scrutiny as well of the commission’s legal team.

In May 2025 we released the Guidelines.  Now, in all honesty some of you might know that actually at Ally accessibility camp last year they said the Guidelines are out, we are set to release them in December, but of course something came up and someone said, “Hang on, we have got to wait.”  So technically speaking we were ready to go in December 2024, and finally in May 2025 we got to release the Guidelines.  In all honesty it was an amazing feeling to be able to work with the Commission to release the Guidelines.  I have had some fantastic feedback from people, including someone who I do know is on this call, because I saw them post a message in chat who I think said that they wrote love hearts all over their printed copy, which I have hugged dear that comment.  But I guess for us at Intopia and so many people within the disability and also the accessibility community have been working to improve the accessibility of digital goods and services, and so by no means is this something that is new, or even I would say something that is groundbreaking.  But at the same time it has put a renewed focus on our digital accessibility and inclusion and I have seen the direct results of these Guidelines being released and organisations really looking at their digital accessibility and inclusion initiatives.

So I want to go a bit over the Guidelines and what you can find in there, maybe some of you have read them, so bear with me.  So the Guidelines are broken up into three chapters.  The first chapter focuses on the legal aspects and also human rights obligations.  So it tells us the why from a legal perspective, but puts that within the context of digital goods and services.  The second chapter is much more of a practical chapter, how to.  That looks at how to go about providing equal access to digital goods and services.  Then lastly, chapter 3 is a bit more like a reference library, it actually lists some of the different standards and Guidelines on digital accessibility that we know people are using.

So looking a bit more into chapter 1.  So chapter 1 actually, as I mentioned it looks at the Disability Discrimination Act, introduces that, but in particular it does focus on what is considered digital goods and service.  In defining what digital goods and services are, this is definitely one of the main things you’ll see a difference between the advisory notes in the previous document and this one.  So when the advisory notes are published it very much focused on websites, and that really was mainly it.  It definitely referenced documents and had some advice around PDF documents, but technology definitely evolved a lot in that 10 years.  So it didn’t talk about even like for instance mobile applications, and I know that was often questions I got said, “The advisory notes they don’t mention mobile Apps” and often we’d have that conversation again, what is the Disability Discrimination Act, the fact that section 24 talks about goods services and information, that is anything really digitally-related, you are delivering any good or service in a digital format it is going to fall under the Disability Discrimination Act.  But this particular part of the document really outlines what those digital goods and services are, and in particular it calls out I guess your usual suspects, your websites, mobile Apps, your documents, that kind of thing, but then it also talks about what I call the digital, physical hybrids, so things like kiosks or EFPTOS machines, but puts a nod to intangible things like artificial intelligence and biometrics.

The chapter 1 also talks about that difference between direct and indirect discrimination.  So for instance direct discrimination is an active decision to block access for someone, let’s say, perhaps you haven’t designed your website to be used by a person who is blind using a screen reader, and then indirect discrimination, where perhaps it is the way things have been structured that actually creates that disadvantage.  So maybe there is a time-out on a form, which means that someone actually doesn’t have enough time to complete a process and doesn’t have that ability to then extend that time limit.

It then also does talk about reasonable adjustments when needed.  So there is sort of a requirement or at least a reference in the Disability Discrimination Act and by the Australian Human Rights Commission about implementing reasonable adjustments unless doing so would cause unjustifiable hardship.  I think this is a recognition at least for me that everyone is on their own accessibility journey, and in all honesty the reality is is that every organisation has something that is not going to be accessible.  There are absolutely different reasons that that might happen.  It might be legacy systems that you are in the process of updating, it might be that you have 10,000 PDFs and perhaps it is just very difficult to be able to update 10,000 PDFs for accessibility.  So I think this is just an important acknowledgment that there is that option of a reasonable adjustment process.

Then lastly, there is the highlight for chapter 1 is that just highlighting changing and emerging technologies.  As I mentioned we are hoping these Guidelines are easy to update and have been structured in a way that can be updated as, technologies move and change, but once again it is that highlight that as technologies do change, we still need to think about access and antidiscrimination.

So chapter 2 has a bit more of that practical how to.  So few highlights of chapter 2.  It does talk about adopting and applying recognised standards.  So probably no surprise to anyone, we do have accessibility standards and they do have a role to play in creating digital goods and products and services.  The old advisory note was referencing old standards.  This particular part of the document does bring us up-to-date with some of the latest standards and also when combined with chapter 3 really talks about, not just the web content accessibility Guidelines, which are usually the most commonly referenced accessibility standards, but also a range of other standards as well.  I won’t go into those right now, but not just standards around the actual technical side of creating accessible products and services, but also Guidelines or standards that actually help with the process of creating accessible goods and services.

Key highlight.  Should have bolded this line completely, actively involving people with disabilities.  So the old advisory note did mention this, but in my personal opinion it certainly didn’t come through as clearly as it does within the new Guidelines.  So there is an acknowledgment that, yes, accessibility standards have their place, but in addition to that, you should be actively involving people with disabilities.  That includes in your user research as part of your co-design process, and also in usability testing to verify what the experience is actually like for individuals.  So we know that a system that can be technically conformant with accessibility standards might still not be usable for someone, or it might still be a very difficult system for them to use and therefore it might be that they actually take double or triple the amount of time to complete a task, let’s say.  So this comes through very clearly in the Guidelines that need to actively involve people with disabilities as part of your process.

Unsurprisingly it talks about including or integrating accessibility at the start of your process, otherwise often called shift left accessibility which is addressing accessibility as early on in the cycle as possible.  This is important because we know that if systems are built to be accessible, then they are built with the needs of users in mind, both those with disabilities and everyone else that is also using the system.  If accessibility is left at the end a few things happen.  First of all I usually get a call as the accessibility consultancy going, “Oh my God can we have an audit because we suddenly realise that we need to be accessible?”, and that’s usually what people do.  Also even if an organisation does complete a technical audit, does complete usability testing with us or with someone else, often by that stage anything that someone can do with a system is more like a bandaid.  They are trying to fix discreet issues, but it is quite hard at that stage to completely rebuild a system or rebuild things within a system.  It really is not going to be the best experience possible.  So it is great from a product perspective to build with accessibility in mind from the start, but it is also more cost-effective for organisations as well to build accessibility in; you are not leaving everything to the end, you are not finding all of these issues and you are not investing and usually the statistics is that you are investing 30 times the amount of time and effort to fix an issue at the end of the process after you’ve gone through development than if you were actually integrating it as part of your process.  So good for users, good for your organisation.

The last part that comes through in chapter 2 is also promoting that inclusive culture and mindset.  So for us when we work with organisations, yes, there is a lot about do you have the right governance in place?  Do you have the right policies in place?  But so much of accessibility and inclusion is also about the culture of accessibility and inclusion.  It is also a changed mindset for organisations to build that culture.  But it is just as important as some of the more tactical process-related things that you are going to be doing in order to create accessible digital goods and services.

Our last chapter, standards and Guidelines.  So for anyone out there who likes a good standard and guideline, this is where you’ll find it.  Examples of what you are going to see.  The W3C standards, WCAG I have also mentioned, but also standards like ATAG, an authoring tool, think Microsoft tool as a great example of an ATAG; something that’s used to create a document, share it with someone else, that’s a simple example of an authoring tool and there are standards for that.  Australian Standards, so AS EN 301 549, as I always say, say that three times fast, but that’s a broader standard.  It actually is a harmonising standard, is does harmonise with WCAG.  It includes things like information about websites, but also about software including mobile Apps, desktop software and the like, two-way communication.  It has a hardware section for things like those kiosks and the like, so it is actually a lot broader than say WCAG that tends to be web, does actually apply to other sort of digital formats, but certainly not as broad as say the inclusion of hardware.

It also then references the Australian Government and State standards, so in particular from a Federal perspective that is going to include the digital experience policy, which the two standards that sit underneath that that are most relevant are the digital service standard and inclusion standard.  Lastly any industry-specific requirements, so banking, the Banking Code of Practice and the advice from the RBA is a good example of that.  Also the TCP code for your telcos.

So with that, where do we start?  Noting I am keeping an eye on time and I know there are going to be questions, so I might blast through this quicker, because as I always say, I am never short on words for accessibility and that always means I am not over time.

So look, every organisation has got a different maturity to start with.  I have worked with a lot of organisations, an example is Australia Post that we have been working with on the past 9 years on the accessibility and inclusion, they actually came top on the accessibility and inclusion this year for the Australian Disability Network.  So you’ve got some organisations like that who have been working on accessibility and investing in it for a long, long, long time.  They are going to be at a different maturity level to, let’s say, another organisation that might be just starting.

But for me I think these are probably the four stages I would say most organisations will go through in some way, shape or form.  First is discover, what’s your current state?  Second is define, what’s that shared vision across your organisation and the roadmap for change?  Third one, deliver, basically making it happen.  Then the fourth one is sustain.  So that’s fostering ongoing successes, ongoing continuous improvement to really become a leader in this space.

So here are some things you might think about when you go through each of these phases.  I have broken each of these into two streams.  I have broken it into a product and services stream, so that’s much more about what the products and services you either currently have or maybe are looking at building or buying, and then the organisational side of things.  So all the bits, let’s call it that we put around this to make sure we can actually deliver on our products and services, so things you might ask yourself in the discovery phase for products and services.  What services do we have?  That’s pretty straightforward.  You’d be surprised how many organisations don’t know.  What is their current level of accessibility?  So potentially benchmarking, maybe starting with an audit just as a benchmarking exercise, not to take away though from the actual experience of the user.  Lastly, what constraints might you have to consider?  So things like those legacy systems and that kind of thing that are going to take time to address and to change over.  From an organisational perspective, maybe looking at how mature is your governance or policies or processes that go towards supporting the products and services?  What’s your current skill level across your organisation for anyone involved with this?  Do we have that culture of accessibility?  Are we starting from maybe a low base or maybe we can build on a great culture already?

Second part, define.  So you kind of understood where you are, basically, that’s your accessible maturity assessment.  Then you start to look at for products and services how am I going to fix the existing products and services.  Most organisations that I work with we work on a remediation plan, what’s in existence, how are we going to fix that, but then how am I going to ensure anything new is accessible?  Then how am I going to address those constraints over time?  From an organisational perspective, it is how do I make accessibility business as usual?  That’s a very open-ended question.  How do I make sure people have that right knowledge and skills?  So uplifting capability, you don’t want to set people up to fail, put a policy in place and then absolutely no-one knows how to do something or what to do.  How do I foster that inclusive culture and that inclusive mindset?

On to the tactical delivery and in all honesty I could put 10 million points underneath here and you are all going to have things that you want to prioritise within your organisation.  Products and services, essentially executing that remediation plan for anything that is in existence.  Setting up reasonable adjustment processes for those products, perhaps that you can’t make completely accessible at this point in time and also call out for setting up accessible procurement practices.  So locking yourself into a product for, say five years, not having considered accessibility, that can be a huge issue.  (A) you made the decision, (b) you don’t have it in your contract so you often have very little legal kind of weight to then talk to your providers about this.

Then from an organisational perspective starting to set up those governance and policy structures.  We are sort of thinking top-down governance and policy and bottom-up, people having that mindset and having that knowledge to deliver on these.  Implementing those accessible ways of working, so how do you shift accessibility in your organisation and rolling out that training program.  Then lastly the sustaining element to things.  Products and services optimising accessibility.  You might have some of these things.  The examples I have given are things like automation, so we can not test everything, all accessibility issues against using automated testing tools, but we absolutely should be using automation where needed and where necessary in order to optimise your process.  Reusable components, design systems; all of those are going to speed up that process, but also create a more consistent experience for everyone.

Move to a more mature inclusive design process.  I say this noting that for most organisations they do start down the accessibility kind of point, but it is about maturing so you are moving towards an inclusive design process and considering and including people with disabilities throughout the entire process.

Then an organisation stage, implementing those long-term plans and becoming an invisible leader in sharing your experiences with other organisations so you can learn off each other.  I am way over time.  There are a few QR codes on the screen that will take you off to the Guidelines resource kit and also the accessibility maturity snapshot, which is a free tool that we released that might just give you an idea of where your accessibility maturity may be at.  They’ll be in the slides so you can share them.  I am going to stop, because we definitely need to move on to questions.

ROSIE LANE: Rosie here.  Thank you so much, Sarah.  That was wonderful.  Absolutely no qualms or quibbles from me, because there was so much good stuff in there.  We have had a few things come through in the chat.  We can only get through a few of them, but we can collate the rest of the ones we don’t get to afterwards.  An interesting one that’s just come through, actually, what are the most common accessibility mistakes that you see in digital services?

SARAH PULIS: Mistakes, okay.  There is probably a few and I’d say – so I might not talk about the technical mistakes like images don’t have text, I think we probably know those types of mistakes that happen.  I do think within organisations, mistakes that are made are often not having a senior sponsor for your program, and so when you don’t have that senior sponsor often an organisation is trying to be accessible, but they don’t have the buy-in, they don’t have the budget and therefore you can only go so far essentially with accessibility if you don’t have that senior executive buy-in and it is not front of mind, it is not being embraced by leadership.  So I’d say that’s definitely one major thing that I would say, particularly for larger organisations that are trying to create systemic change across a very, very large organisation with a lot of different people and areas and the like.  So I’ll leave that one so we can get through more questions, but that would be one of my key ones.

ROSIE LANE: That’s fabulous.  That resonates with us at Australian Disability Network where we talk about the importance of senior leadership all the time because it is one of those key drivers of being able to create that kind of sustainable change that we are talking about.  One that’s a bit more technical, I suppose, asking around besides screen reader tools what other accessibility testing tools do you recommend, or how can we begin that process of auditing and understanding the accessibility of our digital products?

SARAH PULIS: Absolutely.  So when we talk about tools there is probably – I am going to put screen readers aside for a sec because that’s probably what I would call assistive technology and we should be testing with those.  If you are testing, and it is usually against the standards, you do then have your automated testing tools which I mentioned.  So there is a lot of free ones out there, often plug-ins.  Lighthouse is built into Google Chrome, so anyone has access to that.  It uses the axe-core you can download that which is another free plug-in.  Another one is accessibility insights and that again uses the axe-core rule, but it does have some guided manual testing in it as well to cover off the success criteria that you can’t cover with an automated tool.  They are just three off the top of my head.  Obviously there is always going to be a level of manual testing.  I am not getting into the AI discussion today.

ROSIE LANE: That’s a separate Webinar.

SARAH PULIS: Exactly.  On that assistive technology side, I know a lot of people do use screen readers for testing.  That can be useful.  You do need to be aware though that perhaps a screen reader might be operating in a particular way and surfacing issues that if you look at the code might actually be an issue for all screen readers, so just keep that in mind.  That side of things of the testing and the assistive technology really is and it is actually part of WCAG, it is performance requirement 4 that talks about support we commonly use assistive technologies, so often that is screen readers, desktop and mobile.  More often than not voice control technology, so Dragon actually speaking and the equivalence on the Google and also the Apple ecosystem.  It can then also include other technologies, assistive technologies as well like screen magnifiers, or even turning on high contrast, non-assistive technology, but it is more adaptation, so there are also parts of that that I would also recommend as part of testing.

ROSIE LANE: Fabulous, thank you so much.  It just goes to show the amount of nuances and complexity even in what we are testing, how we are testing, what technologies we are considering in this space, which is one of the reasons having the new Guidelines along with your other standards is so so useful.  I will unfortunately although there is a lot of wonderful questions that I wish we had time for, but I don’t want to keep us from our lunch, so we’ll take the rest of them that are coming through and look at them afterwards and publish the FAQs.  Thank you so much, I can see the chat is going off which stresses the importance in this topic.  I wanted to leave you all – and Sarah mentioned it briefly – as we were discussing our access and inclusion index, Intopia have their accessibility maturity assessment which is fabulous for getting into the nitty-gritty of your digital accessibility.  If you are thinking more about that, or kind of whole of business approach to access and inclusion our index is open now for submission at the end of the year.  It supports you to measure your progress, enable delivery of access and inclusion across the organisation and drive that engagement as well, so when we are thinking about things like senior leaders, getting everyone involved the access and inclusion index is a great way of doing that.  We have got a couple of links here which will be in the slide pack to give you a bit of a snapshot.  If case you want to hear more from me, we are hosting our Webinar specifically about the access and inclusion on September 3rd, so hope to see you there.  Something you might want to consider if you are looking for ongoing support with your inclusion journey and you are not yet a member of the Australian Disability Network, our bronze membership is a great place to start.  We can give you the framework community, community to support that meaningful action.  After you finish checking out Intopia and all their fantastic resources take a look at our website as well.  Thank you so much Sarah, this has been fabulous, I feel like we could have two hours in unpacking accessibility and inclusion.  Reach out to us if there is anything we can do to support.  I will leave it there.  Thank you all, have a wonderful afternoon.

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